Empowering Art and Community In and Out of Prison: Rahsaan Thomas

Kate Tucker: I'm Kate Tucker, and this is Hope Is My Middle Name, a podcast from Consensus Digital Media. Today, I have a very special guest.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: My name is Rahsaan. I'm known as New York. My last name is Thomas, so Rahsaan New York Thomas.

Kate Tucker: It is hard to summarize what Rahsaan does, because Rahsaan does so much stuff. He's a filmmaker and a co-host and co producer of the wildly successful podcast Ear Hustle. He's a journalist, an entrepreneur. He's also a formerly incarcerated person. When Rahsaan was 29 years old, he shot two men when a drug buy went bad, and one of those men died. Rahsaan's story could have ended there, with a sentence of 55 years to life. But a fateful encounter with a fellow incarcerated person set him on a new path, and a transfer to San Quentin Rehabilitation Center gave him purpose and direction. Rahsaan was released from San Quentin in 2023 after 23 years in prison, and he's dedicated his life to helping incarcerated writers and artists get their work outside prison walls through his collective Empowerment Avenue. As you'll hear, Rahsaan's story is one of redemption and transformation. And it's about the unique power of art to give hope and second chances to so many.

Kate Tucker: Hello, Rahsaan!

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Hey, Kate. How you doing?

Kate Tucker: Oh, I'm good. I'm so glad to get to talk with you. Thank you again for taking the time.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Thank you. I appreciate you.

Kate Tucker: Let's start with basics. Tell me some of the many, many roles and titles you hold these days.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: I am the executive director of Empowerment Avenue, which is a nonprofit that supports incarcerated writers and artists and now filmmakers to reach their industries and get their voice on major platforms, while also earning a prevailing wage and building up their resumes and their CVs so when they come home, they're not in a desperate situation of being homeless and jobless and no ID, they're already moving. I'm also the director and writer and producer of Friendly Signs, which next goes to BraveMaker Film Festival. I am also a producer on the podcast Ear Hustle, and I am a writer and a father. And some stuff I'm probably forgetting.

Kate Tucker: All right. All right. Well, if you will, I'd love to go back to the beginning. I'd love to know a bit about, you know, where are you from and what was it like growing up for you?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Yeah, I grew up in a place called Brownsville, Brooklyn. And at first it was fun. You know, I grew up in these buildings called Atlantic Towers which were two buildings separated by a hill. The West building's at the top of the hill and my building was at the bottom. But between the hills were these cement paved pathways, perfect for like riding your bike down, skateboarding. It was just fun going outside with roller skates or my skateboard or my bike and just flying down those hills. You wouldn't need to pedal, you wouldn't need to push, you just let go and the momentum would take you all the way down the hills around the bottom and almost halfway back up before the momentum ran out. But, you know, drugs hit. They started taking money from social programs and resources got scarce. Parents became addicted to drugs. Kids, you know, started acting up and it just got more and more violent. I got caught up in it.

Kate Tucker: In what ways do you think your environment shaped you and, and shaped your vision of who you could be?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Yeah, you get faulted by a system, by the choices you make. But when you have a multiple choice test, where it's be the victim, and endure being a victim until you can graduate from college and hopefully save enough money to get out this environment, or fight back or do nothing. Those aren't good choices, none of them.

Kate Tucker: Yeah,

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: You need some new choices and I didn't know how to create those new choices. I was a kid just going with the choices in front of me.

Kate Tucker: So today your life is totally immersed in the arts. I'm curious, when you were a kid, did you have any exposure or involvement in the arts, and do you remember if you thought about creativity much at all?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Yeah, I would doodle. Like, on all my homework, all my notebooks, I would draw superheroes and just little stick figure characters. And my mom encouraged it. She took me to these art classes at Brooklyn College. I was still like a preteen, but instead of encouraging me to do art, it kind of discouraged me because I was in a class with, like, artists who were amazing, like, and I didn't feel like I was on their level. Like, my little doodles don't look nothing like that. So I kind of tapped out after one perspective line drawing class.

Kate Tucker: Okay, so I have so many questions about your art and creativity, and it's actually what drew me to you in the first place. First, I want to talk about the period of your life when you were in prison, and how ultimately it was such a transformational time for you. But we're not going to go into the detail on your crime because, as you said, it's not who you are. After you committed that crime in 2000, you were sentenced to 55 years to life. And you were sent, I believe, to Calipatria State Prison in California?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Yes, that's the first maximum security I was sent to in California.

Kate Tucker: And so while you were there, you had this meaningful kind of interaction with this guy named Samir.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Yeah.

Kate Tucker: I'd love to hear that story and what you think it was about Samir that really made an impact on you.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: So at the time I was very angry. I was convicted of second degree murder and attempted voluntary manslaughter with gun enhancements. And I felt like my conviction made no sense. I felt like even under the DA's theory, they had guns and they started it. And so I was super angry because if they had guns and they started it by law, that's manslaughter, but the jury never got the proper instructions. So I got a split verdict where they gave me attempted manslaughter for one guy, you know... I can go on and on, but the bottom line is I felt like I was jerked in court. So I was just mad at the world. And I was running around with the anger on my face, evidently.

And one day, uh, this old Muslim man just walked up to me and said, you know, there's nobody you can harm that's going to get you out of this prison. In fact, that's going to make it worse. And it just blew my mind that this guy didn't know me, and he just walked up to me out the clear blue sky and said that and walked away. And so I think the shock of him singling me out to make that statement to me really got to me. And I just went around thinking about that, like, why did he say that to me? What does that mean?

And I started thinking about Muhammad Ali and how Muhammad Ali gets his opponents mad on purpose. And they're so mad that they go hard and trying to knock his head off, but really they're just tiring themselves out so he can pick them apart. And I realized my life was doing that to me. Like every time I got to a decent level with my career, with working, or with anything, I would get mad and I would explode in a rage. And the next thing you know, I'm facing criminal charges. And even if the charges work out in my favor, I sat on Rikers Island in 18 months. So, and then I have to come home and start all over and try to get back into life. Right. And it gets harder and harder each time. And so, I realized it was destroying me and I wanted to do something different.

I also realized that all my life I fed into the wrong odds. You know, like in my neighborhood only three out of ten people make it. And instead of doing everything I could to be one of the three, I embraced the seven. And so I wanted to try something different and not give in to hopelessness. not give in to they're gonna kill me anyway, right? I've been thinking like that for the longest. I'm supposed to be dead by 18, and here I am 29, so I need to start planning to live. And I became a believer, meaning a Muslim, and I felt like even if I never go home, let me at least get it right for the next life.

Kate Tucker: In 2013, you are transferred to San Quentin, and you start working in journalism there at San Quentin. I'd love to hear how that started, and then how you met Claire Gelbert. And what made that friendship so important?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: It all started in 2005. Around then, I decided to be a writer because I thought maybe if I never go home, what could I do? What could I possibly do to make my sons proud of me? What could I possibly do to take care of them so they don't follow in my footsteps? And writing is the only possible thing I can think of because under California Penal Code 2109 it's one of the few exceptions for an incarcerated person to be able to earn money while incarcerated. Other than that, you're not allowed to have a business or career or profession that generates revenue except art. When I got to San Quentin, I didn't even know what San Quentin was, but when I got there and found out they have everything I need to become a real writer, like to learn the craft, I was like, Yo, yeah, I need to sign up for everything.

And I focused on the Journalism Guild because I wanted to get in San Quentin News because they have computers. I had been writing all those years, so I arrived with like this 250,000 word manuscript called From Guns to God. And I wanted to like edit it and, you know, without having to type everything all over every time I changed a few things, right?

I met Claire because she was a volunteer for the Journalism Guild. And so she would come in. And we just got to talking one day about, I was running a marathon, and she mentioned that she went to run a marathon, and around that time, it was like 2017, 2018, there was a chance I might get out through commutation. My name was in the air, I was going through the process, and I felt good about my chances, so we talked about running a marathon together when we got out, the New York City Marathon.

Kate Tucker: So you ran a marathon in San Quentin.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Yeah, my first one I ran in San Quentin, and I broke two records. The first time we had 13 people finish a marathon, and I have, to this day, the slowest marathon time in San Quentin State Prison history.

I like, why are you laughing? This is an accomplishment. At 6 hours, I think, 15 minutes and 21 seconds.

Kate Tucker: It's an accomplishment, yeah.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Yeah, yeah. It is. And it's an inspiration. Everybody said, if this slow mother fucker could do it, that next year 23 people completed the marathon. So, I think I inspired 10 more people.

Kate Tucker: I love it. I love you being willing to put yourself out there like that, Rahsaan. That's great. So then you did end up running with Claire. Tell me about that.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Oh yeah, that was dope. So first of all, she sacrificed her time for me. Uh, she runs in the 3:30 range, 3 hours and 30 minutes. So she ran the marathon with me at my speed. And my speed, as you know, is not hers. And so, um, Brooklyn was amazing. The crowds were out there. It felt like coming home from prison or something. Just everybody's showing you love. They had people with these signs everywhere. And then all these little kids with their hand out. And so you don't want to just leave them hanging with their hand out, so you run over there, snap them five, run back on track. I ended up doing that most of the race. I've never seen so much love and so many people come out to support.

Kate Tucker: That's amazing. Well, listen, we're getting ahead of ourselves because I still want to hear a little bit about what happened in San Quentin. You got involved in so much beyond just journalism. Let's talk about Ear Hustle first. For people who haven't yet heard it, could you explain what Ear Hustle is?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Ear Hustle is a podcast that was started in San Quentin State Prison by Erlonne Woods, Nigel Poor, and Antwan Banks Williams. And it's about life inside and then it graduated or elevated to life on parole or life after incarceration once Erlonne paroled.

Kate Tucker: And as a podcaster and a producer on that show, you know, what drew you to doing that versus just writing? And what was the learning curve like for you?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: So it was just a more powerful medium. You know, everybody was like writing and writing and telling stories and trying to reach the public. And this just did it, like the first episode has, I think, over 3 million downloads right now. But even back then, it was the number one podcast on iTunes for a little while. It just kept winning awards, and I just wanted to know what that magic is. What's that formula? And when I got the opportunity, because Erlon found out he was going to parole early due to a commutation, I jumped on it. I applied for the job, and thank God I got it.

And what I had to learn first and foremost, because I came there with a spirit of a journalist and I wanted to like do these, you know, some journalism type stuff and they told me, Slow down, like, no, we don't do that here, we just tell stories. And at first I was like, Wait, wait, whoa, do I want to be part of something to just tell? I don't want to just tell... but then I realized telling stories is more powerful. You know, nobody's trying to buy something if you're trying to sell them something, you know what I mean, or trying to tell them what to think. But if you just tell a story, it just has such amazing effect. And I can't directly correlate things, but I really feel like the popularity of Ear Hustle really helped, like, change laws and change hearts and minds, and just shift society's thinking towards crime and what crime is, because we think crime is evil or bad choices, and we don't look at it like that. it's really society boxing people in and then not handling well how to get out.

Kate Tucker: So after you start podcasting, you become a filmmaker and one of the films you make is a documentary called Friendly Signs about Tommy Wickerd, a man who's serving a 57 year sentence. He's determined to teach sign language to everyone at San Quentin. Tell me how you got started in filmmaking and what it was like for you to use your creative vision to tell someone else's story.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Yeah. So filmmaking in general started because I was watching people come in, documentary filmmakers, and make some films. I was in two features by this time. I started feeling like, well, why don't we make our own? And so I asked the public information officer at San Quentin, could we make documentaries? He's like, Yeah, you can have the same access. You just make appointments the same way they would have. And I was like, All right. I started making documentaries. I started with, I think, was Losing Your Mind, and then I made, uh, Dungeon Therapy, and then More Than Basketball. But Friendly Signs came about because I was a music supervisor on a documentary that I was in called 26.2 to Life. And in that process, um, I asked the director of 26.2 to mentor me so I can get better at my filmmaking. And she agreed. And because she was free, she was able to get a grant from the Marshall Project and Sundance, which allowed me to hire her to go shoot footage in society.

The idea from Friendly Signs came about because Tommy's a friend of mine in the Thousand Mile Club. And he told me that the deaf community was coming to San Quentin. And when he told me that I was like, Yo, that's something new. That's different. Like, let me be the first one to get that scoop. And so, um, I pitched that idea to the Marshall Project and Sundance. They said, yes, they loved it. They gave us the grant. And the deaf community was supposed to arrive in September, but I started following Tommy around with the camera already because this grant required us to get the film done in a year. And they didn't show up in September, they didn't show up in October, they didn't show up in December, they didn't show up until February. And he had like, dropped out of school. dropped out of groups. He like cleared his life out to dedicated to serving the deaf community. And he kept warning everyone like we need to start the sign language class now. It doesn't matter if they're here or not. People need to be speaking sign language by the time these guys arrive so they won't feel like they're in a foreign country.

And sure enough, he was right. They came in February, March, we got locked down for the COVID crisis. In June, we had a COVID outbreak so bad that basically they went to a skeleton staff and no interpreters can come into prison for like, I think, two weeks or more. And so during this period, the deaf community, a couple of them got infected, sent to the hole. There's no communication. They don't know what's going on. And you're getting information by listening out to the PA yelling, you know, showers are going to be at this time, yard at this time, phone calls, two at a time, stuff like that. And they couldn't hear anything. And there was no one around to interpret it, so it was a horrible time for them.

But things are much better now, and they're really just thriving now at San Quentin.

Kate Tucker: So when did you finish the film?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: So the pandemic interrupted it, but we got it done still, uh, June 2022. And I came home February 2023, just in time.

Kate Tucker: Mm.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: It went to, uh, its first film festival, the San Francisco DocFest in June, it premiered.

I got to see it on the big screen and experience that which was amazing because there's this scene I envisioned when I was incarcerated where the deaf people arrive on the yard and we just drop the sound. Just drop the sound and do a POV shot of them just walking on the yard. and what the yard looks like to them and what the experience is like to them with no sound.

Kate Tucker: Yeah.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Just seeing people's faces, but to see how it lands in a movie theater when the sound drops, like you feel it and you feel the audience feel it. Like you really get it like, what's it like to be deaf for a few seconds.

Kate Tucker: Across all the mediums, you know, you talk about doodling superheroes and then you are a music supervisor on some documentaries and you've been published countless times. And you podcast. What is your favorite thing?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Film. Cause it embodies everything. It embodies the writing, you know, write the script. It embodies sound. It just takes everything and puts it together. And also, film is more social. Cause I can write on my own. I could potentially podcast on my own. But you cannot make a film on your own.

Kate Tucker: Oh no.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: I mean, it just takes a village. I've shot things on my own. And I realized like one time I'm so busy with sound and doing an interview, I forgot to turn on the camera.

Kate Tucker: Yeah.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: It's just too much to manage as one person, like trying to be sound, lighting, interviewer, and camera.

Kate Tucker: Yeah.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: It takes a village. So you have to be social. You have to, you know, get out your bubble.

Kate Tucker: Yeah. So beyond just actually creating your own work, you also, while at San Quentin, became a curator of other artists work. Tell me, you know, how that came to be and what you did on behalf of those other artists, like how did that all come together?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas:  I had admired a lot of artists at San Quentin. I admired their work. In fact, Antwan Banks Williams, I bought two paintings from him while we were incarcerated. One for my mom for her birthday, but one for me because I believe that he's gonna blow up as an artist one day and I felt like I can get it now at this low, low price, but then this is my retirement plan. It's gonna be the Picasso of my future. And so I just really believed in these guys art, and at the same time, I felt like they didn't believe in themselves. Cause even Banks, Banks was like, I'll do it for free. I'm like, No, you're not doing it for free, I'm paying you. And so I always felt like these guys deserved more.

And so when the opportunity came to be part of giving them more, I jumped on it. And that opportunity came through the mail. A lady named Jo Grotter approached me through the mail. She asked, Do I know anybody who's a Black organizer that wants to be part of working with a Jewish woman to form an art event that's going to have women dancing in the air dedicated to stopping mass incarceration by uniting Black and Jewish people for that purpose?

I'm like, What? Heck yeah. Stop mass incarceration. People dancing in the air. I'm in. I'm in. I'm in. At the time, I didn't even know that it was a curator role. I just thought like, this is a dope opportunity to get people's art out into this exhibit. And so I gathered up art of people I thought was really, had talent, art I admired. It wasn't coming from no professional museum point of view. It was just what I thought was beautiful. What I thought was powerful.

So I gathered up a bunch of art like that. And then as we got close, thank God I did. I sent it out early. I'm always trying to get things done early so it can't be late. And then the prison goes on lockdown for COVID. I'm like, uh, but all the art was out. So I was like, thank God. And then as we got closer to the event, thank God it was an online event anyway and they started asking me to write a curator statement. And at this point I realized I had became a curator and didn't know it. They asked me to pick a title for the show. Just all this stuff. I was like, wow. All right. And then instead of advocating for more money for myself, I advocated for each person who participated in this event to get, I think it was 400 each or something. I forgot what it was, but to get paid to participate in it. And then we had an auction afterwards and we were able to sell eight of the paintings.

But the beautiful part was that it was covered by 26 different articles. And it was the most press MOAD, the Museum of African Diaspora, whatever you say, that fancy word. It was the most press they got for any exhibit they ever did. And so I was really proud. It was called Painting for Justice: Meet Us With Your Mercy. It was just amazing. It was amazing.

Kate Tucker: Wow. So, I mean, that's a huge job. That's like a full-time job in the art world. Were there any moments where you were like, what am I doing? Or like, how do I do this? Or were you just, you know, so in it that it just came to you?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: I didn't know I was a curator. Had I known that, I probably would've been intimidated.

Like I, I've never curated anything. What do you mean? But I was just trying to get these guys art connected to this museum, so it can be in this exhibit, so they can be seen, so they can be valued, you know what I mean? So they can just stop giving their art away. I know guys are so remorseful and they want to redeem themselves with society, and so badly, but at the same time, like, you have to know your worth. And if you're going to pay your restitution, you have to get top dollar for your art. Otherwise you're going to parole still in debt to state imposed restitution. You know?

Kate Tucker: Yeah.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: So if you give your paintings away and you still owe 10,000 in state imposed restitution, you're still going to owe 10,000 in state imposed restitution. So it didn't even occur to me that I was a curator and until they came around to writing a statement for it. And the statement, I just wrote from my heart. It wasn't even hard, but it ended up being one of my favorite writings.

Kate Tucker: Let's talk about art and redemption because what you just described, you know, the difficulty artists have with valuing their own work and the unfortunate willingness we have to just give it away, and also the way that society exploits that and, you know, says it's for exposure, and all these other things. Speaking of kind of just the different effects it had on people's self worth, people's healing, people's self image, are there any stories you could share about some artists you saw really step into their own through that process?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: I would say maybe, uh, Lamavis Comundoiwilla, and, uh, Stan Baer, two people I know that really emerged differently from that experience. First of all, they would cut out the clippings of their stories with their artwork in it. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it gave Stan more confidence. And he would start demanding more for his art.

And Lemavis went to another level. He actually was the brainchild behind a non profit called Artwork Initiative, which seeks to create a pipeline for artists that parole to jobs in the art industry. And I think the confidence, like, to do these kind of things just came from the success of that event.

Kate Tucker: I'm curious, you know, what is it that you think is so transformative about art, maybe for you, and for those you observed, you know, who were creating things around you in prison?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: So the thing about art, I always say that it's beautiful even when you're painting something ugly. It's transformative too because it takes you from where you are into where you want to be. There's no limits to your imagination. There's no limits to what you can put down on that canvas or for me, like how I can tell a story or a spoken word piece or craft a narrative. You're not limited by what you see around you anymore. You can go anywhere your imagination takes you, and that's special. And people look at you different when they see you through art. There was a film called Tehachapi where amazing artists like painted portraits or took pictures of like all these guys on the yard and in doing so you could see that humanity in the pictures, right? It wasn't their mug shot. It's an art shot.

There's two other things that are amazing. One, it gives you purpose. And when you're in prison, you have to have a purpose. If you have a multiple life sentence, you need a reason to live. You need something to look forward to. You need something to do that's positive. Otherwise, you're just staring at the noose all day, right? The other thing that art does, it brings people proximate to you. It's a conversation starter. It brings worlds together. It gets people to come into the prison to like want to be part of the William James Art and Corrections program or the creative writing class or the media center where the films are made, right? It just brings people proximate and in those meetings, anything can happen.

Kate Tucker:  Well, while you are there and you're having this incredibly like expansive experience, developing as an artist and curator, then you decide to start Empowerment Avenue. What was the kind of aha moment for you when you really realized this is what we need, and what was your initial vision for it?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: It started by just noticing there was a renaissance happening around me. We were getting published in outside magazines, and that was important to me because I don't want to just preach to the choir. I want to reach new audience and get these messages out. about like how to stop crime, right? How to change, you know, shift our dynamics, or just entertain, period. And seeing that, I noticed that one writer was getting published more than everybody else, and that was Emile Deweaver. And part of that is because he's one of the best, like he's that good, like he's better. But at the same time, he also had advantage. He had met an editor who supported his career. She would take his work, give him feedback, you know, email it to publishers that we couldn't do. And I was like, yo, that's the edge.

And so I said, what if everybody has somebody like that? And so I started writing this grant proposal that would like hire an army of people to like volunteer and be like the lady Camille was for Emile. So I had this whole vision. Who's going to file this grant? Who's going to actually do all this stuff? We had a breast cancer walk and a lady named Emily Nonko came in for the breast cancer walk. And a friend of mine's name, uh, Eddie, said like, Yo, there's this lady from Brooklyn on the yard, you gotta meet her. And he's not knowing she's a writer or what I'm trying to do, he just knows she lives in Brooklyn and I'm from Brooklyn and I should go meet her.

And I found out that she's a journalist and she's really also here to cover a story about San Quentin News. And in the course of covering the story, she discovered the talent here, and she already had it on her heart that Yo, I want to help you guys get to bigger platforms. Cause she's a freelance writer, she's been in the Wall Street Journal, all kinds of stuff, and so I was like, Yo, you want to help us get to bigger platforms? Boy, do I got a plan. And so let me send you this grant proposal. But, uh, they end up never filing it, COVID hit, and yeah, we decided to launch a pilot program with Empowerment Avenue in June. And so when she did a call out for volunteers, all these writers were home because of COVID. All these organizations were missing out on the hottest story on COVID of the year because they couldn't get into prisons. We had over a hundred volunteers volunteer on the first call out. She would pair the volunteers directly with writers. I got paired with amazing lady named Adrienne Griffin, who's a contributing writer for Esquire magazine. Somebody else I know got paired with somebody from the Atlantic. So it's like we got paired for the writers that like really had some chops and it made the difference.

I went from getting eight stories published in seven years and making 300 to publishing 42 stories in 31 months and paroling with a hundred thousand. And bylines hit as far as the Boston Globe, Business Insider, NBC Universal Academy. Um, High Country News, all kinds, Outside Magazine, all kinds of stuff. It was a blessing. So I basically created a program because I needed it. I needed a way to get past the choir. I needed a way to make an income so I can start being like, I think it was a 40 something year old man at that point, 48, asking my mommy to send me packages, you know? And when my sons need, now they're grown, when they need something for college, they got to go to their grandma and grandpa. They can't come to me because I can't help them. And so that changed with Empowerment Avenue.

Kate Tucker: What do you think? All of this creative work you've been involved in has done for you emotionally, you know, mentally, spiritually.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: I feel proud, first of all, and grateful. I feel grateful to, like, come home, to already have savings, to already have a career, to just walk out, like, right into life already moving. But more than that, art has been a vehicle to empower others. And that's what's most important to me. In fact, I co-produced films with currently incarcerated people. And I have films, I have films, ideas I want to do, but they're all on hold because I feel better about helping somebody incarcerated make their film the way I got a chance to do. That means more to me to give those opportunities back. And so art for me is, is not just beauty. It's a path to empower people, to get people paid for their work so people are not coming home in a desperate position of 50 and a bus ticket and no housing, no clothes, no job and no ID. It's a way to empower people and at the same time, it's a way to get people to see the beauty and humanity in us. It also, like, when it comes to the writing, you get to reach people that you normally don't reach. It's not the San Quentin News. Like, we've hit the New York Times three times, right? We hit Rolling Stone Magazine, like, like, we're hitting everywhere. You never know where you might find an incarcerated voice popping up and getting that different perspective.

Kate Tucker: Mm. How do you think your art and your creative work contributed to your sentence being commuted?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: A thousand percent. Because, number one, it created a public will for my release. In fact, everybody that was outside the prison when I was standing there. Well, mostly people I work with in some capacity and nobody out there was my family. My family did not make the trip.

Kate Tucker: They're your art family.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Yeah. Yeah. I call them my Bay Area family. But yeah, definitely family in a different way. Yeah. Uh, but what I'm trying to say is that I created a community through art. I created communities through film, through writing and through social justice and merged all these communities together. And that's who got me out. But also like by writing and being so public, it was a way for the governor to see if the public wanted me back or not. Yeah. Because if there were a lot of negative comments, like, Keep him in, like, ah, look at this writer, who is this? You know? Then it was signaled to the governor that, Yo, this guy, man, the public don't like him, and if I let him out, it's gonna affect my voting, you know what I mean? My voters.

Kate Tucker: Oh, I never thought of it like that.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Yeah, if the voters like This guy's cool, governor, why is he still there? He changed. We all see it, don't you see it? And so a lot of people change in prison, but their change isn't public, it isn't visible. But my change is very, very visible by just being in all the documentaries, but also like curating art, like you said, being part of the Ear Hustle Podcast, producing episodes that I also get to be in, writing pieces, you know, that just make my change very visible.

Kate Tucker: So your sentence was commuted in 2022 and you were released in February 2023 after 23 years in prison. And, you know, you talked about your art family on the outside ready for you waiting. Take me inside your head. I can only imagine how mind blowing it must have been to cross those gates into just that moment. Like, what was it like for you? How did it feel?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: The short story is amazing. Like, amazing, amazing. Like, just to walk out and literally, like, 50 people are waiting for you to come out the prison. And, you know, I got to hug 50 people, and a good 10 to 15 of them were people that came into the prison as volunteers, and you aren't allowed to touch them. So it's like this force field around these people for all these years, and the force field was finally off. And so I got to hug everybody, Nigel included, everybody. So it was beautiful. It was beautiful.

Kate Tucker: Were you able to stay present in the moment? I mean, when you were hugging Nigel, Nigel Poor, your co-host on Ear Hustle, it must have just felt so surreal. I mean, it's hard enough to hug 50 people. I mean, it's amazing, but also hard to stay present. But like, how did it feel?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: It felt like a hug a thon! So, I felt amazing, amazing, amazing. I'm with people that I love, care about, hadn't seen in a while, couldn't hug before, and now here I am, it is legal. The hug them all. I guess the best way to describe it, I thought there'd be nowhere else you might feel this feeling before, I've never felt so much love.

It's like the opposite of a funeral. Everybody is there instead of to cry for you to show you love. Everybody should have that feeling. Everybody should see that that that that many people care about them. You know what I mean?

Kate Tucker: Yeah.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: That that many people in their corner. Uh, it's also pressure. I can't go back to crime now.

All these people counting on me.

Kate Tucker: That's so great. Was Claire there that day?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: She didn't even know I was getting out that day.

Kate Tucker: Oh my gosh.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Um, we got back in touch. I DM'd her, just said, I'm home. Start training for the marathon. I was kidding. She took it serious. She's like, yeah, we had a pact. We're going to run the New York City marathon. I was like, uh oh. I said, alright, if we're going to do it, then it needs to be a fundraiser for Empowerment Avenue. It needs to be for a purpose.

Kate Tucker: It's amazing. Well, yeah, you had so much to do, right? Straight out of the gate. So what are you focusing your energy on these days? I mean, There's just so much.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Yeah, just, uh, uh, what I'm lacking is a social life. I work, work, work, work, work. I am currently making films. I am currently in the film festival circuit with Friendly Signs. I am the co-director along with a lady I call Cousin Cori, playwright Cori Thomas. We're co-directors of the San Quentin Film Festival, and so this is going to be a film festival that takes place at San Quentin October 10th, God willing. And it's backed by everybody, like Tribeca, American Documentaries coming, uh, the opening night film is Sing Sing, the closing night film is Daughters, uh, God willing the cast of those films or at least people from those companies come out, A24, we got Scott Budnick coming, just, it's going to be amazing.

Kate Tucker: It's so incredible.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Yeah, and it's inside a state prison, you know, in order to qualify for the shorts narrative or shorts documentary, you have to be currently or formerly incarcerated. We do this stuff with shoestring budgets. So I'm always thinking about like, what could I do if I had a budget?

Kate Tucker: So I hear you're also working on a book and part of that book is using stories to talk about the power of connection and inclusion. Tell me what you've learned about building community. Why, you know, it's so, so important.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Exclusion is so, it is such a powerful force for negativity, and inclusion is such a powerful force for positivity. And so I preach that it's very important to include people in everything, every way, as much as possible. Just have an inclusive society. Because the main reason why people join gangs and get the F the world tattooed on their face is because they don't feel like they have a place in society. Either they feel rejected or they feel like their family members or their loved ones are rejected. And so they decide to join up with this other thing. And we call ourselves the United States, but how can we be united if we exclude each other and treat each other like that? And so I'm really big on it. Really, really big on it.

Kate Tucker: In some way, I feel like when Samir kind of called you out or said what he said to you, it was in a way him saying I see you and that is kind of this first step in inclusion. Were you able to do that for other people or do you have you know recollections where you kind of stepped into the role of Samir and we're able to bring somebody in?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: That's a deep question because I'm always trying I tell you that. I'm definitely always trying. There was definitely a young person that came through the Squires program. The Squire's program is a program that brings in cats from the inner city, you know, young kids, like, I think, I forgot the age range, but maybe 10 to 21 or something. And they come to a prison, but they also sit down and hear our stories. And then we hear their stories. And our stories, we take three minutes to tell them. It's just why we're in prison, but like not the gangster glory way, the, the shame that caused me to commit this crime or, you know what I mean?

Kate Tucker: Yeah.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: And in telling that they hear themselves in us because a lot of them are on the same paths. And they make connections that they never made before. They start to understand. And just in that instant, just that fast, in three minutes, they start to understand. And this one kid, man, he talked about like having a weapon and doing different things. And I was telling him how that gun is going to destroy you. It's going to make you either kill or be killed. And either way you're going to lose or you're going to get life in prison, like you're not going to win. It's not the way. It's going to make you worse off in the long run and there's better ways to deal with certain situations.

And I told him that and he left and I didn't know if I would see him again, how things would work out for him. But six months later he came back to the program and he said, Man, I didn't come back because I need this. I came back to thank you. You know what I mean? Like what you said got to me. I got rid of the gun and I'm doing good right now and I just want to come back and thank you. And so that definitely let me know that words have power.

Kate Tucker: Yeah. So how has it been for you in your own transitional period? I know you came out with like huge plans and you were already ready to go, but I mean, how has it felt?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: I would say in general, I don't miss the prison, but I keep going back. I've been back at least 12 times. I'm coming back with hope. I'm coming back with opportunity. I'm coming back with a film festival. I go back as a society professional journalist volunteer. I go back when they ask me to come speak at different events. And so I say I don't miss it, but I think that that place definitely means a lot to me as a landmark. A lot of things happened for me there. Like just so much. The people I met, what I was able to accomplish and the people I accomplished it with. But most of my family there is either out of getting ready to come out, but like the laws is changing, you know, mentality shifting. And I was in a circle where everybody's, you know, striving to do better and It's working out for them, you know, there's only about two or three people left. I think it was like 15 of us. I thought we're never going home. And now there's only two or three left and they're all in the board process. So they'll be home soon enough too, you know, so San Quentin's looking strange to me. So now I'm helping strangers get opportunities that I was blessed to have on a whole nother level.

Kate Tucker: That's so amazing. And it strikes me that it would take a lot of courage to do that. And it's just really powerful that you're showing up like that. You know, what are some of the little joys you've experienced in the past year getting out? I mean, did you get to eat all the food you had on your bucket list? Like what's still there that you got to do?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Ah, that's a great question. Go to an NBA finals game.

Kate Tucker: Yes! I see that in your future.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Maybe, maybe I'm able to get tickets here and there, but finals is going to get tight. I've never been to one, so my teams have to make it. My teams have to go to the finals, so.

Kate Tucker: Okay, we're putting it out there.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: We're putting it out there. I want to leave the country. I haven't done that yet. I want to go someplace where you can see the fish in the water. That'd be a new experience. And they have like white sand, like, you know, uh, I've gotten to see a Broadway play. I've gotten floor seats at a Brooklyn Nets game. I got going to a Warriors playoff game against the Lakers. Um, I've gotten to eat at so many different restaurants, so much good food. I've got this jump in the lake in Chicago. I got to go to Atlanta film festival. I'm just blessed. Just grateful.

Kate Tucker: What's giving you reasons to hope these days?

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: The fact that formerly incarcerated people keep winning Pulitzer Prizes. What I was worried about is that Empowerment Avenue was a moment, a moment during COVID. Reporters couldn't get into the prisons. We were the only ones, the only way we can get the scoop. But now the demand for incarcerated voices and art is going up. And films about incarcerated people are going crazy. Some really good ones like Art Crime is amazing.

I just feel really hopeful that funding is shifting our way. We're being viewed as real filmmakers and same thing with art. I'm really proud of Jesse Krimes and Jared Owens and all the Right of Return guys because they came from prison doing photogenic art and they got out, they studied art, and now they're making real money, they have real careers through art.

And so we're being accepted into the art world, the film world, the writing world. We're being included in society and if you want to stop crime, if you want a better society, a better world, a real United States, it's inclusion. So I love it. And then one other thing Empowerment Avenue, two of our artists, two of our writers have fellowships from prison. And so inclusion is going to a whole nother level where it's going beyond the bars, you know? And so I'm really hopeful that this trend can continue and we can show that you can have a society that has a lot less crime. I want to say no crime, but evil does exist. So it's hard to eliminate completely, but a lot less crime that is somewhere close to utopia without bullets and handcuffs.

Kate Tucker: It has been such a joy to talk with you. Thank you so much, Rahsaan.

Rahsaan "New York" Thomas: Thank You

Kate Tucker: Thank you so, so much to Rahsaan New York Thomas for sharing his transformative story about the redemptive power and beauty of creativity. We have got a ton of links and more about Rahsaan and his work with Empowerment Avenue in the show notes at hopeismymiddlename.com.

Hope Is My Middle Name is hosted and executive produced by me, Kate Tucker. You can find me on YouTube and on Instagram @katetuckermusic. And if there's someone you know who belongs on this show, send me a message. Hope Is My Middle Name can be found on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you listen. It would mean so much to us if you would leave a five star rating and a glowing review. And if you're still listening, please copy the link to this episode and text it to a friend. That actually makes a huge difference in helping us reach more people with more hope.

Hope Is My Middle Name is a podcast produced by Consensus Digital Media in association with Reasonable Volume. This podcast was produced by Christine Fennessy with editing from Rachel Swaby. Our production coordinator is Percia Verlin. Sound design and engineering by Mark Bush. Music by the fantastic artists at Epidemic Sound, Soundstripe, and me. Big thanks to Conor Gaughan, our publisher and fearless leader at Consensus Digital Media. And thank YOU so much for listening. We'll see you next time!