California’s Firefighting Goatherder: Terri Oyarzun

Kate Tucker: I have long been a sucker for goats, and I'm now fascinated by the very important work they do preventing wildfires. As you'll hear, Terri Oyarzun is not only incredibly proud of her lean, mean grazing machines. She is deeply devoted to their wellbeing.

They are her life and her loves. So let's go talk goats with Terri Oyarzun.

Kate Tucker: Hello. Hi. Here you are. It's so good to see you! 

Terri Oyarzun: You as well. Yes. Hello! This is exciting. I got disconnected. Poor Grace. I had to pull her in and go, wait, wait, I can't remember how to do the thing. 

Kate Tucker: Everybody needs a little grace in their life. 

Terri Oyarzun: Yes, they do. 

Kate Tucker: Okay, so I love goats. I have been to goat breweries. I've done goat yoga. I've been to goat farms, but I know still very little about goats. 

Terri Oyarzun: Oh, there are so many things that you need to know about goats. First off, all of them are characters. Each one has a distinctive personality. They're quirky and fun, and come up with some great scams to get out of wherever you've put them.

They're very bright. Ours are working goats. The majority of them are out grazing for a fuel break to protect all of our California residents from fires, wildfires. So those are not the pet pet goats, but they are just a hoot to watch out in the field and play. They do not eat tin cans and garbage. They might be after what was inside of the tin can, doesn't mean they won't go check it out, but they are not the garbage collectors that people think that they are. They're actually fairly selective in what they're eating. Also they have rectangular pupils, the only mammal known to have that.

Kate Tucker: You're kidding me? 

Terri Oyarzun: No! 

Kate Tucker: I have stared into goat's eyes before and I always thought they had a strange look on their face, but maybe that's why– I didn't register the rectangle. 

Terri Oyarzun: There you go.

Kate Tucker: Oh, that's amazing. Do you have a recollection of one of those times that a goat kind of outsmarted you or got out of a situation that maybe you didn't anticipate?

Terri Oyarzun: Yes. We had a goat, Eileen, and Eileen was out working. She was a working goat, and we would get phone calls from the neighbors, because we work alongside residential communities, that there was a goat that was wandering the neighborhood and for the life of us, we could not find Eileen. And the neighbors would all be out helping us.

Lo and behold, one of my children, I believe, was with me and they just happened to look up and there she was up on a roof watching us drive by. So she knew my car, and as soon as my car was, I guess within earshot, she figured out a way to get up on the roof. 

Kate Tucker: Whoa. Come on, Eileen. Oh, that's so–

Terri Oyarzun: Well, we had to get a Border Collie and put the Border Collie up on the roof to help shush her down. And so we had it all figured out, right, as humans, what her path was going to be to get down off this roof. But, oh no, she surprised us. She went right off the front of the roof onto the hood of a very expensive sports car, and off she went, you know. And she wasn't scared. She just wanted to be out visiting in the community. Finally, when we got her, we put her in the back of the car and off we drove with Eileen in the back of the car. We said, you are now retired. You're gonna come home. No more working in public for you!

Kate Tucker: Well, she told you, I think! Oh my gosh. We're gonna get into the whole story of Goats R Us and all of the amazing things that you're doing, but I'm still just thinking about the goats themselves.

Can you give me, kinda like the lowdown on the breeds, maybe like a one-liner on the breeds. You work with each of them, something quirky about 'em. Maybe their astrological sign or something. 

Terri Oyarzun: Well, they come in all astrological signs because here at Goats R Us, we have a community of goats. We run about 10,000 heads.

So we have all varieties of goats. We started by doing a kind of a rescue and we continue to do rescue to this day. So we run everything from boer goats, which are typically raised for their meat. We don't use them once they're part of the Goats R Us family, they have a lifetime guarantee. We started with angora goats, which is a fiber goat used for their hair, and cashmere is another fiber goat that we have.

We also go all the way down to pygmies and Nigerian dwarfs, which are the smaller sort of a backyard breed of goat. Very tiny, very compact and cute, and very beautiful. They're full of personality. Those are the ones that usually are the thinkers. We have some dairy goat rescues. We have Nubians, we have some Alpines, and then there is the ever popular Spanish goat, which is a hardy breed that comes out of like the southwest Texas and Arizona.

And are very good at running the hills and tolerating weather changes. 

Kate Tucker: So let's talk about what it is the goats are actually doing. I've never seen a working goat. Take me on a sort of a day in the life of a Goats R Us goat. 

Terri Oyarzun: Well, today for instance, there's a herd being moved into a new project.

So their day started with getting loaded onto a big livestock truck to go for a ride down the road of maybe 12 to 15 miles, and then they get to their new location. The men are busy setting up the electric net portable fence to contain them, and then they're offloaded into a lush field of yummy grasses and weeds and all kinds of things, and they're very, very anxious to go and check out the buffet.

So as a rule, they'll tour as you or I might at a buffet before we fill our plates. Take a look, you know, “Oh look, Martha's over there. What? What is she looking at?” And so we'll wanna see what our choices are before we settle in and commit ourselves to what will fill our plate. They do exactly the same thing.

Then they go off and they select their gnashing location and they will eat until they're full. Goats are ruminants, which means they have a four-chambered stomach. So they eat until all four chambers are full, and then they lay down for a union nap. So once you see one goat lay down, pretty soon the whole herd will be down and they’re ruminating, as a cow that chews their cud, that's a form of ruminating, and that takes them maybe an hour or two and then they're all up and at it again. And that's pretty much their day until they finish that particular pen and location. And when that project is completed, they're moved. Usually there's several corrals per project at least. So they're moved into the nice, fresh area and they continue on.

Kate Tucker: Talk to me about acres and goats. How much is a goat eating in one day? 

Terri Oyarzun: Well, now that is a really good math problem, Kate. It depends on the goat, the size of the goat, the density of the vegetation, the moisture that it's withholding. So without getting into all those specifics, I’ll go with a small herd of about 350 goats, they will eat an average acre a day. 

Kate Tucker: Wow. And who is in charge of these goats while they're out there eating all this lush green goodness?

Terri Oyarzun: Each herd has a herder and he works with one or two herding dogs. We run Border Collies. He is the one who makes the decision about when it's time for them to move. So we don't want to overgraze a site. He always has the next area prepared, unless we're at the end of the project, at which point he notifies us and we get the trucks lined up to get in and move them off to their next tour of duty. 

Kate Tucker: And how many goats is he usually herding or managing? 

Terri Oyarzun: A small herd is 350 goats. A large herd would be about 1800 goats. So it would depend on the job site. Again, asking about acreage, you know, is your job 10 acres or is your job 350 acres? 

Kate Tucker: Hmm. 

Terri Oyarzun: And that's how we determine which herd will show up. And he gets a little help from his friend, the Border Collie. 

Kate Tucker: Tell me why Border Collies? 

Terri Oyarzun: We just really like them. We also have one miniature Australian Shepherd that was never meant to be a working dog, but she's worked her whole life and has done very well.

Border Collies are probably… they're smarter than me and they are very loving, very loyal. Other herding dogs, I feel, are tough on the goats. To herd cattle, you need a dog that has a stronger bite and a harder… it's called an eye when they stare at what they're herding about. And goats don't need that much push.

They need an organized dog that goes really fast. And that would be the Border Collie. 

Kate Tucker: And so do you train the Border Collies? I mean, how do you, how does this work? 

Terri Oyarzun: My husband was our trainer years ago, and I think at this point, the older dogs train the younger dogs for the most part. 

Kate Tucker: Hmm. And what happens when, I mean, how long is a Border Collie active and do they get to retire? What happens after their long life of work?

Terri Oyarzun: Yes. They just come home. They're retired at home. Some of them watch chickens, some watch shoes in the corner. Depends on their level of commitment. It's like going to a, you know, any retirement facility. 

Kate Tucker: I love it. So, okay, let's get down to the nitty gritty of the work that the goats are actually doing. I want to know a little bit more about why someone would hire 1500 goats to come to their property. 

Terri Oyarzun: Oh, that's an easy answer. Fire control is our main job description. Sometimes we do other things like noxious plant removal, brush reduction and such. Those are usually things we do in the winter. But fire control, they are protecting people.

They're the four-legged firefighters of California and they are out clearing the understory and the dry grasses and weeds and brush that fuel the, it's called ladder fuel. When they graze around a place, the grasses can be five or six feet tall. The goats come in and take it down to about two inches.

We never strip an area because that can cause erosion if you have hillsides further down, but the goats will eat it all down, leaving a little bit of the ground cover so you are not going to damage your root structure for future growth, and all around the trees and things. They are helping the firemen who go in. If there is a fire, it's going to blaze across this two inches of growth.

It won't have anything tall enough to then catch leaves on fire from low hanging trees, which then catches the trees on fire, which then continues on to homes and whatever is in the vicinity. 

Kate Tucker: Wow. So when you take a goat in, I mean, it sounds like it's the ultimate grazing machine. It loves to eat, it knows how to kind of check out the terrain and decide for itself. But how do you do something that's a little more targeted, like say, help eradicate an invasive species? 

Terri Oyarzun: Well, that's a management trick, isn't it? If you look at an area, for instance, that has, let's go with star thistle. That's a noxious, nasty plant that invades a lot of our park areas. You would put the goats in, put up their pen, you know, you would want to them to have a concentration of the star thistle.

We would supplement feed. We have some protein buckets. It might be some yummy alfalfa to encourage them to just continue to graze because it would be like, again, like putting me in a buffet with all green vegetables, I would think, oh my God, you're starving me. You know? And we, and we don't want to starve them. We want them to be healthy and happy. And that's the way we do the targeted grazing. 

Kate Tucker: I've heard that unless managed goats will just continue eating, and I know you said they will stop, your goats. How do they know when to stop?

Terri Oyarzun: Well, we move them. It isn't their choice. That's up to the herder to decide that his area is pretty tidy and ready for the fire inspector to come and he'll move them on. No, the goats would just stay until they ate it down to nothing and there was dirt. And that's a human management issue. 

Kate Tucker: Okay. Let's get into the origin story of Goats R Us. As I understand it, you and your husband started the company. So how did you two meet? 

Terri Oyarzun: Our mutual friend was his boss and he was out in the field, working the goats. I was supposed to be in charge of managing these herds while my friend was out of state and my husband and I couldn't communicate very well. He spoke only Spanish. I spoke only English, but he was such a kind man.

He was always kind to the goats. He was always very compassionate, and I wooed him down. Cookies didn't do the job. Usually they do, but double bacon cheeseburgers did the trick with him. So once he figured I would feed him, he would then come down and, you know, try to visit with charades. 

Kate Tucker: Mm-hmm.

Terri Oyarzun: Nowadays we have Google Translate, we didn't have that then, and we got on so very well. We taught each other how to speak different languages with puzzles. We both enjoyed doing puzzles, so we'd do puzzles and go, look, this is a chair and this is a table.

Kate Tucker: And so he taught you the art of goat herding, or did you have some experience prior?

Terri Oyarzun: Oh, I always had livestock. I had goats as pets most of my life. I always had horses and even in the horse barns when they weren't my personal goats, there were other goats. But I think I've had goats off and on most of my life. Just, you know, pet goats, not a huge herd.

Kate Tucker: So you had something to bond over right away, and then you turned it into love and then a business. 

Terri Oyarzun: Exactly.

Kate Tucker: Those early days. So it's you and your husband and like what's the story of how you actually got the business off the ground? 

Terri Oyarzun: So once we were married, my husband, Egon, took on some other assignments and he really missed the goats. So we decided that maybe what we could do is fill in a niche of working for private homes, which were much smaller areas, basically.

Grazing goats out in the community, in the Berkeley Hills, there are a lot of homes that are up on stilts with lots of grass underneath them and steep terrain. Sometimes they just wanted their weeds cleared so they could plant a garden, but they knew that they lived in the fire corridor, and so they wanted to ensure that their homes had enough defensible space.

And again, usually that was on some steep hillside underneath their house that was being propped up on stilts. So, that's how we started. We said, well, okay, we got 55… we call them Charlie Brown goats. You know, Charlie Brown's Christmas tree. These were, you know, three legs, one eye, no teeth. Hey, that's ours. We'll take that goat. 

Kate Tucker: Absolutely. How do you find these Charlie Brown goats? 

Terri Oyarzun: Animals are brought into auction yards. And the purpose of an auction yard, it's production animals, meat animals. You see a lot of animals that are no longer productive, and that's why they're there. If there's not enough meat on their bones to be someone's dinner, they would be going for another purpose, perhaps dog food. 

I don't know, because I don't go beyond the sale yard. I don't want to know. I'm very much in my Pollyanna world of what I do, and that's all I can really handle. But knowing that when they load onto our truck, that they're going to a home that's going to care about them, that makes me happy.

Kate Tucker: Oh, so you were a very different kind of buyer. Did the auctioneer kind of get to know you and know that you were looking for a special kind of goat? 

Terri Oyarzun: Oh, he was great. Yes, yes. When we first started and we didn't have a lot of money and we didn't have a big direction, we just had a small idea and we would go to these auctions and there would be some poor lame goat in the arena and nobody would bid on it.

And the auctioneer would call my name and say, Hey, look, three legs, one eye. This looks like your goat, Terri Oyarzun. And that's how it started. And it isn't really a job, it's a lifestyle. We've lived this life 24/7 since we first decided that we would. We have our little 55 Charlie Brown goats, but it doesn't really matter if you have five or 5,000. You need to be present and available to care for them. You know, they're a living being and it is a lifestyle. So that's how we began and people always sought us out. That was, again, a huge blessing.

Kate Tucker: Okay, so how did you go from 55 goats to thousands of goats? How did that happen? 

Terri Oyarzun: So we started by doing these homes, these private homes up in Berkeley Hills, and then we were requested to do larger parcels where you would need four or five hundred goats. We didn't have 4 or 500 goats, nor did we have the resources to buy four or five hundred goats.

So we did meet a wonderful, wonderful man who became our mentor, and he was kind enough to sell us a herd of goats with a payment plan. And we didn't really have enough money to do that initially either. So I went to friends and asked if they would invest in bonds. So we made up dollar bills that had, of course, a goat in the middle and people who were able to give us a thousand dollars.

We promised we would pay that back in a year with 10% interest. And out of all the people in my life that were in a more financially secure position, the five people that did give us investments, four were single parent moms. And one was another couple, none of which were over the top financially secure. At the end of the year, when we went to pay them back, not one of them would take their 10%. So we went out and had a big dinner and celebrated. So that's how we funded our first herd. 

Kate Tucker: Aw. Do you remember one of the first times you took the goats out? 

Terri Oyarzun: Yes, we were at a small elementary school in a neighborhood, cute community, a little hillside. They had a whole event for the goats that day so children could come pet them. And we had very simple information about goats and some coloring pages. I thought, this is wonderful. And we had a little truck that we'd built the sides up on, but we had to make two trips to get all 55 goats there. As the day came to a close and people left, it started to occur to me that people were leaving because this wasn't a very safe neighborhood after dark.

Who knew? And the people who had hired us, you know, took off and we were left with oh, well, we've still got to do two trips. And pretty soon I saw the people appearing, you know, the ones that are gonna hang out. And this apparently was their turf and I had a little tiny purple Ford Aspire car. We stuffed two loads of goats inside my car, the cab of his truck behind the seat of his truck, you know, overpacked the back because we recognized we have to get outta here.

Kate Tucker: Oh my gosh. 

Terri Oyarzun: So thereafter, I did really good neighborhood studies before we went places. 

Kate Tucker: I can imagine if I'm showing up to my usual spot and there's a bunch of goats, I'd be a little confused myself!

What's been the learning curve over the years to understand not only how to take care of the goats, but when it comes to land restoration!

Terri Oyarzun: Oh, practice. As with anything, isn't it? Practice and practice guided by trained biologists who are also practicing. It's give and take. So it's been really fun to be part of studies. 

Kate Tucker: Mm-hmm. 

Terri Oyarzun: Our goats have participated over the years and learned different grazing techniques. Timing. Timing is one of those things that we can control. But now Mother Nature has thrown a wrench into that a bit as well. That's changing. Ever changing. It's more like a dance, working with Mother Nature about, okay, you know, you're leading the dance. What's this move gonna be and do we need to come back in and graze this again in the early fall? Again, the management part is learning to work with nature. 

Kate Tucker: I'm curious about other ways you've seen the world change since you started, and people who are in need of your services even more. Talk to me about what you've seen when it comes to, you know, weather, climate change, how that's impacting your ranch and your work.

Terri Oyarzun: Climate change is impacting livestock everywhere in California. Simple things such as seasons – when you expect it to be hot or cold. Simple processes such as shedding animals, or shearing animals. In the case of angora goats and sheep, you get a week full of 70, 80, 90 degree days and figure, okay, we've gotta get this coat off of them.

And the following week you're down to monsoons and hail. So it's a complicated dance to do. The fire season they claim in California now is 12 months out of the year. There isn't a season, it's just year long. You know, even if the goats go through and graze, depending on the weather patterns, there can be regrowth and it can be a choice for that landowner to graze or not. It's a big gambling game about what Mother Nature's going to do. So there is that.

Kate Tucker: Have you had to use your own goats to protect your own land? 

Terri Oyarzun: Oh, they do all the time anyway. Yes, because they're here. Not that I have to, their fields are all around my home, so we're very well protected. All my retired goats live here, so at the ranch we have a convalescent herd, we have a retired herd.

We have babies that are being weaned. We have pregnant mamas, so we always have somebody that needs to go out and munch. 

Kate Tucker: So it's been 30 years now. 

Terri Oyarzun: Over 30 years, yes. 

Kate Tucker: Of goats. 

Terri Oyarzun: Yeah. 

Kate Tucker: I would love to hear maybe some of the challenges you experienced early on, and how you overcame them, you know, to be where you are today.

Terri Oyarzun: Oh, I can answer that. I will tell you our largest, most haunting challenge was public perception. All over the country, but particularly in California, there are so many animal rights groups that get involved in what people are doing, and largely they're correct. Ranching, if you're an animal rights person, that has a poor reputation it’s because the common end is not all that happy for the animal.

That isn't what we do, but people who want to be critical assume that it is so to educate that population was always kind of a big deal. I think many people believe that we're touched in our brain that we invest in our goats’ husbandry to further veterinary knowledge. So we're huge investors in overall goat care because we have such a huge community of goats. 

We also have, you know, the odd problems, the things that don't come up as routinely as, you know, something simple, laminitis or bloat. But we have the weird diseases, so, I think because we are willing to invest our time and energy and money in overall goat health practices and learning more, I think that's been nice.

Kate Tucker: That's so great. Tell me a little bit about the way that you have interacted in the community with the goats. 

Terri Oyarzun: One of my favorite things that we do is the goats work in some areas where there are assisted living retirement homes, and those folks usually love to sit out on their decks and watch the goats work, and they are very excited and appreciative when we will bring one down that they can touch. You know, that whole tactile experience of a goat.

Also, we've worked in some communities where there is a hospice center and those people are even more grateful to have, again, the tactile experience. And I'll always remember my son was maybe eight or nine and he was walking the little goat down the halls to visit the patients in a hospice center.

And the nurses commented to him, they said, this is so great. How did you potty train those goats? And he looked up at me and I looked at him. That hadn't really occurred to us. We were just very happy that the goats– it hadn't occurred to the goats either–  after which we were thinking, you know, okay, let's fashion some cute little pantaloons, you know, that they can take with them. Because we were very lucky. It didn't become an issue, but it was something we just hadn't considered till that lovely nurse brought it to our attention.

Kate Tucker: Goat diapers. I love it.

You've told me people sometimes find a goat crew is coming through and they wanna just go be there. Tell me why you think that is. 

Terri Oyarzun: I think people appreciate them. The goats can be very serene as well. There's nothing quite like sitting in the middle of a field and listening to them all munch.

It's just very tranquil and there are many people that enjoy going out and just kind of being meditative without meditating, just hanging out and being quiet. I think a lot of people, not just city people, but a lot of people in our society these days, don't give themselves that minute. They need an excuse to do that, and maybe the goats provide that for them, you know? Gotta go sit with the goats. 

Kate Tucker: You've grown up with animals and you've been around them your whole life. In what ways have you maybe sort of experienced a deeper connection, a deeper understanding of, you know, your humanity, maybe even healing through being around your goats? 

Terri Oyarzun: Oh, I can't imagine life without goats.

I can't even think about what that would be like… my entire world are my animals. Every decision that I make, every action that I take really is driven by the animals around me. Currently, while we're having this conversation, I can just imagine what the other side of this door looks like. There's a line of them wondering why I'm locked in here and how they can get me out.

Kate Tucker: Okay. I love that picture. Actually, how many goats are just hanging around? And how do they get to be like Eileen? 

Terri Oyarzun: Eileen was a delinquent! Goats that are retired are retired because the travel is hard on them. To get off and on the trucks and be jostled around by younger, stronger animals. They come home and then they just don't have to take those drives anymore and they stay and they work on our hills happily.

Kate Tucker: What's the career length of a working goat? 

Terri Oyarzun: The lifespan of a goat is 10ish, 12ish. Our goats seem to live a really long time, even though they are blue collar goats, they're, you know, they're not being fed high fat grain and kept in barns on straw beds. They're out working, but their work span can go anywhere from 9 to 12 years. And then they come home. 

Kate Tucker: And you've said that in other scenarios they might be sold off for meat, but you've chosen not to do that. 

Terri Oyarzun: No. No, we do not. 

Kate Tucker: Tell me about that decision. 

Terri Oyarzun: Well, I'm Native American and my whole life I've learned how to work with my animals for whatever I'm going to work for. My husband, being from Chile, had a different experience growing up. You know, you had animals and they became your sustenance. You know, they were going to be your dinner. Of course he's nothing like that now. In my heart, I couldn't do what we do if I felt like I was using the animals as a production animal, you know, to have them go out and graze and fatten up and then sell them at auction to be meat. I just couldn't do that. I mean, I just couldn't, just couldn't. 

Kate Tucker: Yeah. 

Terri Oyarzun: I would need a different job. 

Kate Tucker: Do you eat meat? 

Terri Oyarzun: Oh, I do eat meat. I'm not a… but it's plastic meat. It comes from Safeway. 

Kate Tucker: I love it. 

What about your Native American heritage has informed the work you do and the approach you take with your animals?

Terri Oyarzun: I don't know if it was my heritage. I imagine at some level it was things that our grandparents shared with us, their mannerisms towards the animals. Teaching us to cooperate. You know, you have to start from where they are. You don't have a dog that's a brilliant, well-trained dog overnight. You have to start from where they're at.

So I think that's what our practices were as I grew up, was that you respect the animals. And out of that respect and just your past experience, you know, living with and among and guarding and caring for these animals.

Kate Tucker: What do you feel you would like people to understand about our individual responsibility to the planet?

Terri Oyarzun: Oh, I think… There is a saying. It's like “If it's to be, it starts with me.” Something to that effect. 

Kate Tucker: Hmm. 

Terri Oyarzun: And people that feel that if they pick up the piece of paper that's blowing down the road that went right over their shoe, it's not too important. It's a piece of paper. It is important. That's one more piece of paper that won't be doing that if you just bend over and pick it up.

I truly believe that. And I've tried to teach my children and any children that want to be up and under us around here, that those are the important things. You know, it's nothing off your back to do whatever the little thing is. And it helps so many. If everybody sort of did that like, well I could give a dollar or I can give 10 minutes of my time, the world would be such a better place.

Kate Tucker: What's giving you reasons to hope these days? 

Terri Oyarzun: Young people. Young people. I love the situations where schools make a kindness board and a child is given gold stars or Tootsie Pops or whatever they're given as a reward for showing kindness. I love when kids are involved in a Buddy Bench program, you know, to look out for their fellow classmates.

Does someone look sad and lonely or new and isn't mingling with the kids? Reach out. It's great to think of someone else other than… in my mind, I think that gives me hope because I see people getting involved. There's a silly little magazine out that sometimes I pick up checking out at the market and frequently it has, oh, it has a little section called Everyday Heroes, and it is young people that have seen a need and have gone out in their community and tried to make a difference.

And maybe it isn't a worldly impact, but if there were a child or two in each community that did something similar, it would have a worldly impact. 

Kate Tucker: If there were a herd of goats on every hillside… 

Terri Oyarzun: If there were a herd of goats on every hillside, there would be very little vegetation. 

Kate Tucker: Thank you again, so much for taking the time to talk with me today. It's been such a pleasure to hear from you.

Terri Oyarzun: Absolutely! 

Closing Credits: Many, many thanks to Terri Oyarzun for giving us the lowdown on the magical, mysterious firefighting machines that are also just one of nature's cutest creatures.

Hope Is My Middle Name is hosted and executive produced by me, Kate Tucker. You can find me on Instagram at Kate Tucker Music, and if there's someone you think belongs on the show, please send me a message. This episode was produced by Christine Fennessy with editing from Rachel Swaby. Our sound designer and engineer is Mark Bush.

Music by the fantastic artist at Epidemic Sound and me. Big thanks to Conor Gaughan, our publisher and visionary at Consensus Digital Media. Hope Is My Middle Name can be found on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. It would mean a lot to us if you would follow, rate and leave us a review. Hope is my middle name, is a podcast by Consensus Digital Media produced in association with Reasonable Volume.

See you next time!